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Boosted Performance
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  1. #1
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    Default T-5 Internet Myth: Adjustable stops are needed to prevent over-shifting.

    Many believe that without an after market shifter with the adjustable stops, you can over-shift the T-5 and damage it.

    The T-5 ACTUALLY HAS a positive stop under the shifter block in the tail housing that cannot allow the shifter to over-travel the forks.

    There is, therefore, no need for the adjustable stops on an aftermarket shifter. Mis-adjusted aftermarket stops cause perfectly good transmissions to jump out of gear or grind and damage the gears and synchros.

    Now, over-travel of the synchro slider does happen in a T-5. Particularly in the 3-4 synchro, and when it does, it is catastrophic to the keys in the synchro. It is easy to make this happen by hand on the workbench with the top cover removed, but if the fork has good pads on it and there is no excessive play in the input shaft/main shaft bearings, this should never happen with an assembled T-5.

    The design of the aftermarket billet 3-4 keys are less likely to get jammed if there is some over-travel.

    Now, I'm not knocking the after market shifters! They feel great and help you to "find" third gear!
    These shifter stops just cause lots of problems and should be removed, or adjusted way out of the way.
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  2. #2
    Member onequickgt's Avatar
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    Default Shifter

    I agree 100% I have always used a stock shifter with just a shifter handle. Never a problem saved $200.00

  3. #3
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    Default

    The aftermarket shifters feel great, and do help you not to miss third gear when you are in a hurry.

    They also radiate more noise into the passenger compartment because they don't have the rubber isolators at the base of the handles.

    I've had several people think I had built a bad transmission only to prove to them that their mis-adjusted shifter stops were causing the problem!
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  4. #4
    Platinum Supporting Member Platinum Supporting Member TrueBlue62's Avatar
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    Default

    good to know,thanks for the info

  5. #5
    Member stu11926's Avatar
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    Default

    What about Tremec transmissions such as the 3550 and TKO? Does the same apply there?

  6. #6
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stu11926 View Post
    What about Tremec transmissions such as the 3550 and TKO? Does the same apply there?
    Great question!

    I haven't studied a TKO/3550 with this in mind, but I am certain that stops are designed in. Perhaps I will update this next time I have one apart.
    ^ EDIT: See post #18 ^

    The T-45 and T-56 have the selector plate and finger that function just like the T-5.

    The TR3650 limits the travel of the shifter with two hard plastic washers on the single shift rail. The forward one is in the tail housing, but the rear washer is visible in the shifter cavity.
    Last edited by SPeace-ATL; 12-12-2011 at 07:50 PM.
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  7. #7
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    So on the 3650 there is no need for the stops either? I have rea this on the internet a bunch but never fully trusted where the info came from. I have also never set the stops like they say to I usually leave way more space than they recommend.
    True Blue 1990 GT
    4.6 2v 4r70 swapped

  8. #8
    Mustang Molestor darren's Avatar
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    No internet myths, but my personal experience. I have broken syncro keys and broken the tabs that engage the gears off of the shift forks on low mileage untouched t-5's many years ago using stock shifters when I first started playing with these cars because I didn't want to spend money on something I didin't think would make my car any faster. After I got tired of taking apart t-5's to replace $10 worth of syncro keys or on one occasion a shift fork I began using aftermarket shifters with the stops in place and NEVER had any of these issues again. I agree improperly adjusted stops can actually cause problems, but the statement that an aftermarket shifter will help a t5 live longer is not internet myth, but a fact proven to me over and over again in my cars and my friends cars over the past 15yrs. Your personal experiences may have been different, but not for me and everyone I knew with a t5 equipped stang that drove them hard.
    1990 Cam only 6.0 LS Mustang hatchback
    6.71 @101, 10.6@127 N/A
    6.23@111, 9.8@137 150 shot
    5.706@118 225 shot

    1990 4cyl auto coupe, long term project


  9. #9
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black01Bullitt View Post
    So on the 3650 there is no need for the stops either? I have rea this on the internet a bunch but never fully trusted where the info came from. I have also never set the stops like they say to I usually leave way more space than they recommend.
    On the TR3650 there are two black plastic spacers on the shift rail. These serve as positive stops because the rail cannot move any further than the spacer allows.
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  10. #10
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darren View Post
    No internet myths, but my personal experience...
    I'm glad that worked for you! I can't argue with the success you have experienced, but I've torn down many T-5s with aftermarket shifters that had broken keys and fork damage.

    The key to the failures is the keys popping out and jamming. Once it jams the fork is in jeopardy of breaking by the force needed to overcome the jam. Regardless of the shifter used, when slamming a gear, the fork moves the slider with the same force based on the driver's arm and the leverage of the shifter handle. Hmm, I suppose that a shorter handle will render less leverage...

    The key to keeping the keys in place is the endplay of the main shaft. Selecting the right shim controls the endplay. If there is too much endplay, the synchro ring can move away from the synchro hub and the keys can pop up from their notches and jam. Also, the placement of the two key springs is important.

    The billet keys are shaped differently and don't pop up. This is the best protection for the problem.

    Thanks for posting your experience!
    Last edited by SPeace-ATL; 11-07-2011 at 06:05 PM. Reason: spelling
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  11. #11
    Glenn
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPeace-ATL View Post
    I'm glad that worked for you! I can't argue with the success you have experienced, but I've torn down many T-5s with aftermarket shifters that had broken keys and fork damage.

    The key to the failures is the keys popping out and jamming. Once it jams the fork is in jeopardy of breaking by the force needed to overcome the jam. Regardless of the shifter used, when slamming a gear, the fork moves the slider with the same force based on the driver's arm and the leverage of the shifter handle. Hmm, I suppose that a shorter handle will render less leverage...

    The key to keeping the keys in place is the endplay of the main shaft. Selecting the right shims controls the endplay. If there is too much endplay, the synchro ring can move away from the synchro hub and the keys can pop up from their notches and jam. Also, the placement of the two key springs is important.

    The billet keys are shaped differently and don't pop up. This is the best protection for the problem.

    Thanks for posting your experience!
    thank you for that. I just replaced broken keys within the last week. Wish I would've known about the billet keys since I've already sealed it up, but it's not installed yet, so I'll go ahead and get a set.

  12. #12
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    I'm curious Glenn, do you use an aftermarket shifter with the shift stops?

    By the way, I heard that a sure sign of poor craftsmanship is wrinkles in the duct tape...
    Always be sure to keep it smooth!
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  13. #13
    Glenn
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    it's only called duct tape on the road. On the track it's called "100 mph" tape

    tranny I have now had no shifter when I got it, I have a cheapee ebay shifter on it now. Stops are set pretty deep (I hate the thought of not being in gear) I have not driven on this as I'm switching from auto to stick in this car. And when I was putting it all together, I noticed exactly what you were talking about regarding the synchro ring overtraveling. Does it with the cover off, but won't do it with the cover and tailshaft on.....

    previous mustang...
    I've used hurst and upr in the past, the hurst shifter was so bad I replaced it with a factory shifter, only to find out that tranny had a broken shift fork (probably the whole time I owned it up to that point). Was chasing a 2nd gear grind. Replaced shift fork, and all was fine. Replaced stock shifter with UPR because it felt solid, but wasn't having any driveability issues with stock sifter.

  14. #14
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    Yes, the old Hurst shifters can get really loose. Sometimes the Pro-5.0 units get loose too.
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  15. #15
    Mustang Molestor darren's Avatar
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    Yea I'm sure heavy duty keys would have helped out, but I've not torn one down in about 10yrs and back then there wasn't as much support for the t5 by way of aftermarket parts. Also the one time I broke the fork the keys were also broke so that was probably the root cause there too. I never messed with the factory installed shim layout and always just put them back as they were removed since altering that was beyond my scope of knowledge. The aftermarket shifters never kept me from cleaning the teeth off a few stock t5's once I started making power, but after I started using them I never had any more key failures. Maybe you're right about the leverage loss playing a role. Also a different shaped key that wasn't prone to jamming would have helped out a ton. Seems every time they broke they were sheared in half as though they had rocked up out of place the stuck that way when the gears came flying back the other direction as you were saying. Since I have no experience with the aftermarket keys I'll go with the notion that maybe the stock shifter would be ok if you have already had the trans opened up and replaced those, but if it is untouched with the stock keys in place I still feel there's a benefit to installing a good shifter.
    1990 Cam only 6.0 LS Mustang hatchback
    6.71 @101, 10.6@127 N/A
    6.23@111, 9.8@137 150 shot
    5.706@118 225 shot

    1990 4cyl auto coupe, long term project


  16. #16
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    Yes, you have digested all that I said very well!

    The keys are the "key" becase the aluminum forks weren't designed to be strong enough to deliver the force necessary to "chop" a stuck key off so that it can become un-jammed!

    I've been tossing al of the "chopped" keys, but perhaps I will save some and add pictures of the originals, some "chopped" ones, and some billet keys to this post some day!

    I contacted a friend at another big T-5 builder out of state to bounce all of this off of him, and to say that I've been catching flack (not just here) for my statements. He laughed and said I'm exactly right, but it sure sells a lot of shifters!

    The aftermarket shifters feel great and do help us to not miss that quick shift to third! I'm not knocking the shifters, only the adjustable stops!
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  17. #17
    Mustang Molestor darren's Avatar
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    I'm sure you have a very different perspective than most of us as you handle t5's on a daily basis. If it's not the stops helping the key breakage issue then it must be some part of the shifter because it has definately helped out all of mine and my friends cars over the years and made them more reliable. I'm sure someone who knows alot about these things can make the necessary changes internally to prevent this, but for those of us without that knowledge the shifter does have some "band aid" effect
    1990 Cam only 6.0 LS Mustang hatchback
    6.71 @101, 10.6@127 N/A
    6.23@111, 9.8@137 150 shot
    5.706@118 225 shot

    1990 4cyl auto coupe, long term project


  18. #18
    Authorized Vendor SPeace-ATL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stu11926 View Post
    What about Tremec transmissions such as the 3550 and TKO? Does the same apply there?
    Ok, with the TKO and 3550 there is no worry about the slider traveling too far because it bottoms out as it engages, BUT... I don't find anything in there to prevent the driver from applying additional force to the fork once it is engaged.

    So... I would say that shift stops for this application could protect the forks from damage. I don't recall the TKO/3550 as being one with a habit of breaking forks though...

    Has anyone broken a fork on one of these? Let's hear from you!
    - Stan -


    Mustang 5-Speed Specialists - Authorized Distributor for Astro Performance products!
    Offering quality rebuilt T-5, T-45, and TR3650 transmissions in Atlanta

  19. #19
    ME RACING GEO302's Avatar
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    I have had 17 BUILT T5 transmissions
    Mine did live longer with a Aftermarket shifter base.
    I have ONLY and will ONLY use PRO5.0 shifter bases.
    Since my T5 days,i had a TKO 500 for 10 years,and 2 years ago upgraded to a TKO600.
    I am aware of the OEM stops in my TKO600,But i wanted the same feel i was use to.

  20. #20
    Member 4.6L GT's Avatar
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    Will improperly adjusted stops in a T-5 cause the shifter to rattle pretty loud under a pull in 3rd and 4th? Maybe they are adjusted too tight? I can stop the rattle by grabbing the shifter knob, but it's very annoying.
    Matt


    89 LX: 306 w/ Probe forged pistons, TFS 170 heads, TFS stage II cam, Edel. Performer intake, 24lb. inj, afpr, 3.73 gear, moser 31 spline axles, 5lug with pbr front calipers, rear discs, Lakewood upper/lower CA, Maximum Motorsports Subframes, (Boost coming soon!)

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